There is a sister in Christ who said a couple of weeks ago that she is attracted to the Orthodox Church, because she isn't getting 'enough' out of our non-denominational worship. Last night her husband directed our weekly Bible study and spent 10 minutes defending his belief that the books of Enoch deserve serious consideration and believes they were omitted from the canon of scripture by mistake. This is what drift looks like.
Yes…wow for sure! We are drifting away from the faith…. once and for all…delivered unto the saints…so fast it makes your head spin!
Not long ago it was Rick Warren endorsing Roman Catholicism and Islam….then Alister Begg putting his stamp of approval on trans weddings…even bringing a gift…now it’s Kirk Cameron…. embracing annihilation belief… concerning Hell….and many now questioning a 6 day creation…. over theistic evolution! Whats next???
Will Jesus find “The Faith” on the earth…when He returns! I truly have my doubts!
We can take heart that the Lord will find faith on the earth when He comes for us in the Rapture. However, by the end of the Tribulation it will be sparse.
I believe Jesus is separating us out right now, and opening a great many eyes to His truth. We don't have to have perfect theology to be saved, however the better our understanding of scripture, the stronger our faith, and the better our witness.
Wow. I would have had a huge problem with what he said. I was just telling Skip what you said. His answer for those who don’t “get enough” at church, aren’t studying the Bible. And then they wander into the “experience and feelings” territory. Enoch was a historian, but it also has some Jewish tradition (not always Biblical). So because Skip used to preach, I know how things work internally. Pastors (the good ones) have people in the pews, from all walks of life. And we know everyone is taught something different. Most of it is garbage and hearsay. “But Grandpa said this…” and instead of going back to the Word, they think it must be in the Word (assume). So, the Pastor has to do a basic sermon, he doesn’t have time to go deep into the Bible. That’s what Wednesdays used to be for. And how many show up for that? Not many. So I agree, she may not be getting enough, but that’s on her. You don’t run to a heretical church for more, you open the Bible. Or in our case, since our Pastor is in Henderson, Nevada, we downloaded his App, we watch every sermon, and can hardly wait for the next one. With Pastor Billy, we know he’s done the research. And it’s exciting! We don’t have to go elsewhere, except we buy the timelines, we also open our Bible of course, we listen to a couple of other Pastors, like Mike Gendron. You want to know how to witness to a Catholic, he tells you how, because he was Catholic for 35 years and then the Lord saved Him. Sorry to go on and on 😉
One more thing…I have a friend in Phoenix who is a believer, but she called the other day and asked me if God made everyone at the same time He created Adam. 🤦🏼♀️ I couldn’t believe she asked that and didn’t know. So I had to go step by step about Creation, then the fall, then when Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden, and then they had children and those kids grew up and had the next generation and so on. And all the while I’m thinking, “How do you not know this??” So, starting Monday morning we’re going to start a Bible Study (on the phone). But with what your friend’s husband said, as he is leading the home Bible Study, is precisely why we haven’t gone to home Bible study’s for years and years. The last one we went to 15 years ago, the wife of the Bible Study leader, kept trying to tell everyone that Christians and Catholics believe the same thing. 🤦🏼♀️
My church brought Mike Gendron in and he gave a 2 day seminar for members who wanted to attend. The teaching was very helpful and productive.
In defense of my friend, she is very schooled in theology, and she is a long-time Believer, but she is having some personal trials and is looking for answers that can only be found in the Lord. I pray for her, she is dear to us. As for her husband, he doesn't usually lead our Bible Study but the men in our group are filling in for our regular leader because of his age and health, so this isn't our standard format. Nothing like teaching the Word to reveal one's misunderstandings of theology.
I understand that the Ethiopean Orthodox Church includes Enoch as part of its canon. I believe they are in error, as is your firend's husband. Having said that, 1 Enoch has a place in serious study of Scripture as one of many sources of the religious beliefs extant at the time and place that the New Testament was being lived out, when Jesus was teaching the disciples about Himself and His Father's Kingdom. Jude specifically cited Enoch in his epistle and James and Peter both made reference to Enoch or "Enochian themes" in theirs. Jesus often spoke of what His Father's Kingdom consisted of, speaking of "angels" (
I agree 1 Enoch has a place for Christians in general study, in fact, I've read it myself. After trying to read Enoch 2 and 3, I found both of them troubling and unreadable. Since I have considerable discernment (a gift of the Holy Spirit, not my doing) I avoid anything He alerts me to. I don't have to understand why I'm bothered, I've learned there is always a reason, and follow His guidance.
I'd never suggest that there was an error in the canon of scripture. If God can create the universe and everything in it, He can certainly direct what He wants included or excluded in His Word.
Correct. The Book of Enoch is not divinely inspired Scripture, of it would have been included in the Bible. God was in control of that entire process since He is of course Sovereign. Therefore, if that book was meant to be included it would be. Just because Jude quotes one sentence from Enoch does not mean the whole book is inspired. Paul quoted from several Greek poets but that does not mean that all of their works were divinely inspired.
Exactly!! Ultimately, our Lord is the One Who inspired the Apostles to write what they did. But Americans don’t really know what the true meaning of inspired is. If the Book of Enoch was supposed to be in the Bible, He would have made sure it was. And I don’t question God. It doesn’t mean we can’t read it, and we did, but like you Robin, it went into some odd stuff.
Ooops--not finished. The word found in our English translations literally translates as "messenger" and that is only one of the functions that Jesus attributed to the other spiritual beings created to occupy the heavenly realm with God and, along with us humans, forming a part of His "family." It is all very mysterious and incomprehensible to us now that we are bound within our material frame, but it will all become clear once we leave it and enter eternity, for then "we shall see Him as He is," in the words of Paul. Now, there; I'm done.
There is a wonderful video series on AGtv (American Gospel) by a former Eastern Orthodox. I just watched the episode on icons. Very eye opening. Also an episode about Marian veneration (worship!). I thought the catholic church was bad, but he lighlighted several prayers to Mary that made her out to be the savior of the world. Very sad. Jesus came across as an afterthought. 🙁
Just have her go to a liturgical, Protestant church; a so called, "High Church" service. Or, just read, out loud and together, Martin Chemnitz's "Examination of the Council of Trent," which refutes the Roman Church's condemnation of the (Lutheran) Reformation. All meat, no potatoes. And, it's free. https://wolfmueller.co/rome-examined-part-1-full-text-published/
So all acts of bowing, out of respect, and for what or whom is represented, means that you are worshipping it or them, and therefore, breaking the 2nd (really the 1st) Commandment? Baloney, sir. David and Abraham, etc. bowed, as a sign of respect, AS WOULD YOURSELF, IF YOU WERE IN THE PRESENCE OF A KING, including King George III of England, or Christ Jesus, when you will have to appear before Him on the Last Day. Would you be worshipping or showing respect to King George III of England? Respect. Will you be, both worshipping and showing respect, to Christ Jesus when you appear before him? Yes. Distinctions and context matter, and your whole case is predicated on removing distinctions and context. Here's a test: can a RC or an EO worship out in the middle of nowhere; i.e., without a church building, except they have a pastor and bread and wine for Communion? If they cannot, or would not, because they have nothing to look at, except the pastor, then they are probably really idolaters. However, if they could and would, and I think any true Christian both could and would, then these folks aren't idolaters.
I agree that just the act of bowing can be meant simply as a show of respect. As you correctly pointed out, many people in the Bible did that before kings. I think the distinction and issue is with the intention of the act. Or as always in the Bible, with the heart of the individual. Is that individual bowing simply as an act of respect or are they worshiping and offering praise that is only reserved for God? If it is the latter, then it falls under the second commandment and is sinful.
There is a sister in Christ who said a couple of weeks ago that she is attracted to the Orthodox Church, because she isn't getting 'enough' out of our non-denominational worship. Last night her husband directed our weekly Bible study and spent 10 minutes defending his belief that the books of Enoch deserve serious consideration and believes they were omitted from the canon of scripture by mistake. This is what drift looks like.
Yes…wow for sure! We are drifting away from the faith…. once and for all…delivered unto the saints…so fast it makes your head spin!
Not long ago it was Rick Warren endorsing Roman Catholicism and Islam….then Alister Begg putting his stamp of approval on trans weddings…even bringing a gift…now it’s Kirk Cameron…. embracing annihilation belief… concerning Hell….and many now questioning a 6 day creation…. over theistic evolution! Whats next???
Will Jesus find “The Faith” on the earth…when He returns! I truly have my doubts!
We can take heart that the Lord will find faith on the earth when He comes for us in the Rapture. However, by the end of the Tribulation it will be sparse.
I believe Jesus is separating us out right now, and opening a great many eyes to His truth. We don't have to have perfect theology to be saved, however the better our understanding of scripture, the stronger our faith, and the better our witness.
Wow. I would have had a huge problem with what he said. I was just telling Skip what you said. His answer for those who don’t “get enough” at church, aren’t studying the Bible. And then they wander into the “experience and feelings” territory. Enoch was a historian, but it also has some Jewish tradition (not always Biblical). So because Skip used to preach, I know how things work internally. Pastors (the good ones) have people in the pews, from all walks of life. And we know everyone is taught something different. Most of it is garbage and hearsay. “But Grandpa said this…” and instead of going back to the Word, they think it must be in the Word (assume). So, the Pastor has to do a basic sermon, he doesn’t have time to go deep into the Bible. That’s what Wednesdays used to be for. And how many show up for that? Not many. So I agree, she may not be getting enough, but that’s on her. You don’t run to a heretical church for more, you open the Bible. Or in our case, since our Pastor is in Henderson, Nevada, we downloaded his App, we watch every sermon, and can hardly wait for the next one. With Pastor Billy, we know he’s done the research. And it’s exciting! We don’t have to go elsewhere, except we buy the timelines, we also open our Bible of course, we listen to a couple of other Pastors, like Mike Gendron. You want to know how to witness to a Catholic, he tells you how, because he was Catholic for 35 years and then the Lord saved Him. Sorry to go on and on 😉
One more thing…I have a friend in Phoenix who is a believer, but she called the other day and asked me if God made everyone at the same time He created Adam. 🤦🏼♀️ I couldn’t believe she asked that and didn’t know. So I had to go step by step about Creation, then the fall, then when Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden, and then they had children and those kids grew up and had the next generation and so on. And all the while I’m thinking, “How do you not know this??” So, starting Monday morning we’re going to start a Bible Study (on the phone). But with what your friend’s husband said, as he is leading the home Bible Study, is precisely why we haven’t gone to home Bible study’s for years and years. The last one we went to 15 years ago, the wife of the Bible Study leader, kept trying to tell everyone that Christians and Catholics believe the same thing. 🤦🏼♀️
My church brought Mike Gendron in and he gave a 2 day seminar for members who wanted to attend. The teaching was very helpful and productive.
In defense of my friend, she is very schooled in theology, and she is a long-time Believer, but she is having some personal trials and is looking for answers that can only be found in the Lord. I pray for her, she is dear to us. As for her husband, he doesn't usually lead our Bible Study but the men in our group are filling in for our regular leader because of his age and health, so this isn't our standard format. Nothing like teaching the Word to reveal one's misunderstandings of theology.
I understand that the Ethiopean Orthodox Church includes Enoch as part of its canon. I believe they are in error, as is your firend's husband. Having said that, 1 Enoch has a place in serious study of Scripture as one of many sources of the religious beliefs extant at the time and place that the New Testament was being lived out, when Jesus was teaching the disciples about Himself and His Father's Kingdom. Jude specifically cited Enoch in his epistle and James and Peter both made reference to Enoch or "Enochian themes" in theirs. Jesus often spoke of what His Father's Kingdom consisted of, speaking of "angels" (
I agree 1 Enoch has a place for Christians in general study, in fact, I've read it myself. After trying to read Enoch 2 and 3, I found both of them troubling and unreadable. Since I have considerable discernment (a gift of the Holy Spirit, not my doing) I avoid anything He alerts me to. I don't have to understand why I'm bothered, I've learned there is always a reason, and follow His guidance.
I'd never suggest that there was an error in the canon of scripture. If God can create the universe and everything in it, He can certainly direct what He wants included or excluded in His Word.
Correct. The Book of Enoch is not divinely inspired Scripture, of it would have been included in the Bible. God was in control of that entire process since He is of course Sovereign. Therefore, if that book was meant to be included it would be. Just because Jude quotes one sentence from Enoch does not mean the whole book is inspired. Paul quoted from several Greek poets but that does not mean that all of their works were divinely inspired.
I agree.
Exactly!! Ultimately, our Lord is the One Who inspired the Apostles to write what they did. But Americans don’t really know what the true meaning of inspired is. If the Book of Enoch was supposed to be in the Bible, He would have made sure it was. And I don’t question God. It doesn’t mean we can’t read it, and we did, but like you Robin, it went into some odd stuff.
Ooops--not finished. The word found in our English translations literally translates as "messenger" and that is only one of the functions that Jesus attributed to the other spiritual beings created to occupy the heavenly realm with God and, along with us humans, forming a part of His "family." It is all very mysterious and incomprehensible to us now that we are bound within our material frame, but it will all become clear once we leave it and enter eternity, for then "we shall see Him as He is," in the words of Paul. Now, there; I'm done.
There is a wonderful video series on AGtv (American Gospel) by a former Eastern Orthodox. I just watched the episode on icons. Very eye opening. Also an episode about Marian veneration (worship!). I thought the catholic church was bad, but he lighlighted several prayers to Mary that made her out to be the savior of the world. Very sad. Jesus came across as an afterthought. 🙁
Just have her go to a liturgical, Protestant church; a so called, "High Church" service. Or, just read, out loud and together, Martin Chemnitz's "Examination of the Council of Trent," which refutes the Roman Church's condemnation of the (Lutheran) Reformation. All meat, no potatoes. And, it's free. https://wolfmueller.co/rome-examined-part-1-full-text-published/
So all acts of bowing, out of respect, and for what or whom is represented, means that you are worshipping it or them, and therefore, breaking the 2nd (really the 1st) Commandment? Baloney, sir. David and Abraham, etc. bowed, as a sign of respect, AS WOULD YOURSELF, IF YOU WERE IN THE PRESENCE OF A KING, including King George III of England, or Christ Jesus, when you will have to appear before Him on the Last Day. Would you be worshipping or showing respect to King George III of England? Respect. Will you be, both worshipping and showing respect, to Christ Jesus when you appear before him? Yes. Distinctions and context matter, and your whole case is predicated on removing distinctions and context. Here's a test: can a RC or an EO worship out in the middle of nowhere; i.e., without a church building, except they have a pastor and bread and wine for Communion? If they cannot, or would not, because they have nothing to look at, except the pastor, then they are probably really idolaters. However, if they could and would, and I think any true Christian both could and would, then these folks aren't idolaters.
I agree that just the act of bowing can be meant simply as a show of respect. As you correctly pointed out, many people in the Bible did that before kings. I think the distinction and issue is with the intention of the act. Or as always in the Bible, with the heart of the individual. Is that individual bowing simply as an act of respect or are they worshiping and offering praise that is only reserved for God? If it is the latter, then it falls under the second commandment and is sinful.